Crossfire
Conspiracy Theories
Aired March 14, 1997 - 7:30 p.m. ET
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL PRESS, HOST: Tonight: The latest conspiracy.
PIERRE SALINGER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The missile fired down TWA 800. And despite Navy statements that they had nothing to do with the TWA 800 crash, we have strong evidence that they are wrong.
JAMES KALLSTROM, FBI: It's a real shame that this type of thing; this type of, uh, misstatement; uh, inaccurate information; uh, inaccurate analysis; uh, half truths, no truths -- uh, it's continued to be put on -- perpetrated on the American people.
PRESS: Why are Americans so fascinated with conspiracy theories? And who is spreading them?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: From Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the Left, Bill Press. On the Right, Pat Buchanan. In the CROSSFIRE, Jerrold Post, author of the forthcoming book, "Political Paranoia: the Psycho Politics of Hatred." In Boston, Jonathan Vankin, co-author of "60 Greatest Conspiracies of all Time." And in Los Angeles, Ruffin Prevost, publisher of the Parascope Web Site.
PRESS: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
(voice-over) Who fired the missile that brought down TWA Flight 800? What? You don't believe it? That's just the latest of wild conspiracy theories that are keeping Americans glued to the Internet these days.
Come on. Admit it. You really know who killed Vince Foster? How do you know it wasn't Hillary? Did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone? Or was it the Mafia? Who paid James Earl Ray to assassinate Martin Luther King?
Conspiracy! Conspiracy! Conspiracy!
And don't forget the Trilateral Commission, the New World Order, and those black helicopters spraying poisoned chemicals over the landscape.
Conspiracy! Conspiracy!
Why, it's enough to make a sane man like man paranoid.
(on camera) So in the CROSSFIRE tonight, how to explain America's fascination with conspiracy theory? Can we trust the mainstream media? Or are these conspiracy buffs really on to something?
And by the way, Pat, who really pushed Bill Clinton down those stairs this morning?
PAT BUCHANAN, HOST: Let me go to Dr. Post.
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: "Political Paranoia: the Psycho Politics of Hatred."
I guess one of the big conspiracy theories is, "Who killed JFK?" Now, let me ask you: was their an element of hatred in the idea that we know if Lee Harvey Oswald did it -- a tried, convicted Communist; ties to Castro; ties to Moscow -- when many people thought at the time it's going to turn out to be some right-winger.
And the Oliver Stone movies, all these other things to try to prove the CIA or the military or the right-wing did it. Is this part of the politics of hatred? Psycho politics of hatred?
JERROLD POST, "POLITICAL PARANOIA," GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Well, it sure it. Yeah. There's a deep-seated willingness, really, in human psychology, to believe that there's someone out there, that there's enemies out there.
We treasure our enemies. We need our enemies. Without enemies we're lost. And there's a great comfort in knowing that there is this malignant force, uh, out there, and we can righteously rage against them.
BUCHANAN: But you know, there's a tremendous body of opinion, this JFK thing, -- I'm not one of them. You know, I think Oswald probably might have -- the Cubans might have known it. Castro might have been aware of it. But there's a body of opinion of very intelligent people -- and probably a majority of Americans -- who don't think Oswald acted alone, though. Now, they're not all paranoid, are they?
(LAUGHTER)
POST: Well, you know, it's quite possible...
BUCHANAN: I mean, are you and I the only sane guys here, doc, or what?
(LAUGHTER)
JONATHAN VANKIN, "60 GREATEST CONSPIRACIES": It got me in here! It got me in!
POST: Well, I'm not sure about you, Pat, but... (LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: We'll get into that later. This new world order we'll get into. Go ahead. (LAUGH)
POST: Well, the new world order is a marvelous example of something that's been passed on, set upon, and now is in the mainstream of the militia movement, as, you know. What a marvelous idea that on the -- that the bar codes on the back of federal road signs are secret instructions for the U.N. Army planning a takeover.
Anyone who knows anything about the U.N. and its feckless ability -- the notion of them organizing themselves to take over anything shows the persistence of paranoia.
BUCHANAN: But one quick question -- but let me say -- but look: In the new world order, the whole idea is --
There is an idea for global government and transnational institutions. It's the issue dividing the British Tory party, and may break it apart -- this whole Masterich (ph) thing. And a lot of us are very much against that and for a retention of sovereignty. That's what these folks got in mind when they say, "We don't want any part of Mr. Bush's or Mr. Clinton's new world order."
That's not paranoia, doctor, is it?
(LAUGHTER)
POST: Well, in every idea, there is -- there is a kernel of truth, to be sure. But the difference --
In fact, you can be paranoid, uh, and it may be quite correct what you're believing. Paranoid is a style, too. Paranoia is a certain belief in...
BUCHANAN: Yes.
POST: ... danger and in a conspiracy. And one of the aspects about paranoia -- it's the reason these plots are so persistent in their beliefs, despite evidence to the contrary. The true paranoid...
BUCHANAN: Yes.
POST: ... only looks for confirming evidence, ...
BUCHANAN: Right.
POST: ... and rejects disconfirming evidence.
PRESS: Pat, I think you are paranoid, the more I listen to you. But let me go to Los Angeles and ask Ruffin Prevost, you published this Web Site called ParaScope, correct?
RUFFIN PREVOST, PARASCOPE WEBSITE: Right, Bill. PRESS: On which, I understand -- In fact, I saw some today. There's page after page after page about TWA Flight 800 backing up Pierre Salinger's claim that that plane was shot down by a U.S. missile, shot down by friendly fire. Ruffin, why should we believe, put one little iota of credence of in that wild theory?
PREVOST: Some of the pages do support that claim. Some of the pages also just call for a wider investigation into the possible facts that may be there.
So I don't want to say that every page that we publish completely backs up cart blanch Salinger's claims. But we are saying that the mainstream media isn't covering the whole story the way we'd like to see it covered.
As for why you might want to believe it, there's been instances in the past the U.S.S. Binsen (ph) shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988. And the Italian government has now stated that they think either a French or a U.S. fighter shot down an Italian DC-9 in 1980.
PRESS: Yeah, but Ruffin, I mean, in this case, the Pentagon has investigated, said "Absolutely not. No way."
In fact, all the ships that Salinger mentioned that might have done it -- some of them are far away as the Mediterranean. The air traffic controllers say, "No way do those photos that he showed prove anything." The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said, "No way." Why do you think we ought to believe him and not them?
PREVOST: Well, I think the NTSB hasn't had access to the data; the FBI isn't sharing it with them. Some of the NTSB workers have gone on record saying that.
And then also, some air traffic controllers tended to disagree with the assertion that you just made -- that the tapes don't confirm Salinger's...
PRESS: But don't you have a responsibility as -- I don't know, a new world journalist or something -- whatever you call yourself on the website. Don't you have some responsibility for accuracy, for sources, for truth, for back-up? Or do you just spread anything that comes to you?
PREVOST: Absolutely not. We reject out of hand 80 percent of the material that comes to us.
PRESS: (LAUGH) Imagine the rest of it!
(LAUGHTER)
PREVOST: And -- and -- and I would also point out that the people that do the reporting for our web site have worked as mainstream journalists for daily newspapers, as have I in the past.
BUCHANAN: All right. Jonathan Vankin...
PREVOST: We're...
BUCHANAN: Excuse me. Jonathan Vankin, ...
JONATHAN VANKIN, "60 GREATEST CONSPIRACIES": Yes.
BUCHANAN: ... uh, let's talk about what some of these 50 great conspiracies of all times.
VANKIN: Right.
BUCHANAN: Sixty. I'm sorry. I'm ten short.
VANKIN: Sixty, yes.
BUCHANAN: Look, but one of them I tend -- it's one of the greatest ones in American history, that I tend to credit, is the idea that FDR and Churchill and high officials in the American government may have know the Japanese fleet was moving toward Pearl Harbor.
And there have been books written by scholars on this, ...
VANKIN: Sure.
BUCHANAN: ... by historians, by admirals. And the evidence, it seems to me, is fairly powerful that maybe there -- these people did know something was about to happen. Uh, is that one of your great conspiracies?
VANKIN: Yeah. We have a chapter in there about Pearl Harbor, where we discuss exactly what you just outlined, relying a lot on John Tolin's (ph) book, a very respect historian, as you know, who came to that conclusion himself: that they must have known -- that, you know, we'd intercepted the Japanese code and all this stuff.
BUCHANAN: Right.
VANKIN: And that FDR must have known the attack was coming; and, for the greater good of, you know, ...
BUCHANAN: Right.
VANKIN: ... stopping Nazis and getting us into the war, he allowed it to happen. That's one of the theories. It's not my theory.
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me ask you that in that light, because -- Let me -- let me ask you in that light: how many of these 60 conspiracies of all time do you credit some as being possibly true; some as being true; and others as being just sort of off the wall -- that people have gotten a hold of, and -- and they would justify Dr. Post's paranoia, pure and simple?
VANKIN: Well, we definitely have plenty in there that are completely off the wall. I would say -- you know, it's hard to give a percentage. You kind of have to read the book. But, uh, I would say we cover some that we think -- plenty that we think that are just plane funny.
I mean, one of our favorites is this theory that, uh, we never actually went to the Moon, that the Apollo mission...
BUCHANAN: What's so funny about that? (LAUGHTER)
(LAUGHTER)
VANKIN: Well, what do you think about it? That's a...
(LAUGHTER)
PRESS: It's the Air and Space Museum.
BUCHANAN: Listen, I remember people -- I remember people in the 1950s who did not believe the Soviets had orbited the earth. And they're very close to me. People didn't believe that. You know, for years, they wouldn't believe it.
VANKIN: To me, the -- the funny parts...
PRESS: Go ahead.
VANKIN: ... about the theory really are how it's laid out, you know. I mean, there's stories the astronauts -- supposedly they were filming in the desert outside of Las Vegas.
BUCHANAN: (LAUGHTER)
VANKIN: So in between takes they'd be, you know, spending taxpayer dollars...
BUCHANAN: Right.
VANKIN: ... on showgirls and at the betting tables. So, you know, it gets, it gets fairly amusing.
PRESS: It does.
Let me go back to Las Angeles there. And Ruffin, let me ask you about a more serious one, and again, that has a lot of space on your site. Isn't it time to let Vince Foster rest in peace?
PREVOST: Uh, I don't know. I wish we could ask Vince Foster that question. There tend to be a lot of lingering doubts about that case. And we feel like they haven't been answered by the investigations that have been launched.
One, one point I'd like to bring up. We talk about conspiracies. I think a lot of what we're getting at here is a case of semantics, where people argue about -- if it appears on the Internet it's a dubious idea or a cryptic theory, some kind of conspiracy theory --
Whereas if it appears in "The New York Times" or "The Washington Post," it's hard hitting investigation.
PRESS: Oh, but come on! Come...
POST: (OFF-MIKE)
PRESS: Go ahead.
POST: But really, the opposite, I must say, that bothers me: that if it appears on the Internet, in black and white, ...
PRESS: Right.
POST: ... it's true. And one of the things I'm concerned about -- if I'm a lonely paranoid, which I don't think I am, I kind of am a little bit reluctant to give voice to my weird, off-balance kind of ideas.
However, I tune into the Net. Uh, there is someone else there with similar ideas. And we can have a virtual community of haters, of paranoids. And I think for some people in this virtual group, it moves people along. It moves them to action. There's some evidence, in fact, that may -- that may have proceeded the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City -- just, uh, what was out there on the Net before hand.
BUCHANAN: OK. We're going to talk about a number of more conspiracies and is there anything to 'em when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BUCHANAN: Welcome back. We're talking conspiracy theories and what's behind them, besides possibly the truth.
Our guests are Dr. Jerrold Post, author of "The Psycho Politics of Hatred"; and, in Boston, journalist Jonathan Vankin, who's co- author of "The 60 Greatest Conspiracies of all time"; and, in Los Angeles, Ruffin Prevost, publisher of Parascape, an Internet site that deals with conspiracy theories.
Bill. Dr. Post, let me ask you a little bit more about -- I'm really curious about why so many Americans -- and I understand now hundreds of thousands of people every day visit this Parascope (PH) site -- why so many Americans believe the conspiracies.
Now, I saw an interesting poll just recently in "George" magazine that said 86 percent of Americans believe in God, 78 percent believe in angels, 79 percent believe that aliens visited Earth within the last 100 years, and 72 percent say the government is lying about TWA Flight 800. My question to you is: Do you see any connection?
POST: Well, I do think that there's been an increase, in fact, in the readiness to believe in conspiracy theories in recent years. And one of the reasons is we've kind of lost our enemy. With the destruction of the Soviet empire, we've had to look around, and we've met the enemy, and it is us.
PRESS: Well -- and you say, in your pre-interview here with us today, that -- you described the people who were at these sites. You said earlier, "lonely paranoids." And in your interview you talk about mainly the unemployed and the uneducated. Is that the population that believes this crap?
POST: Well, I think there's a lot of very well-educated people who believe this, too. And part of it is our wish for certainty. We don't like uncertainty. We don't like uncertainty. We don't like ambiguity. And the true possessor of the truth, and to have that given to us authoritatively -- that's a great comfort.
BUCHANAN: All right. Ruffin Prevost of ParaScope, not Parascape -- I'm sorry -- do you not have something of a vested interest, since this is your Net site and people lock into it, and the more the better. Don't you have something of a vested economic interest in seeing to it that these conspiracy theories are not quashed.
In other words, every new, little piece of information that contributes to it you want. But if something comes out that says, "Look, it's all a joke. It's, uh, nothing to it," That doesn't help you.
RUFFIN: Well, let me first address the idea that it's uneducated, lonely, hateful, paranoid people that visit our site.
BUCHANAN: Right.
RUFFIN: I think that's an unfair slam. We don't take ourselves so seriously as to not be able to laugh at that characterization because, mainly, I just don't think it's true.
BUCHANAN: Right.
RUFFIN: We have a lot of college-educated, married people who, uh, vote and get out of the house during daylight hours. So.
BUCHANAN: All right. What about Dr. Post's point.
RUFFIN: Right.
BUCHANAN: What about Dr. Post's point that a lot of folks -- there are some folks that are paranoid and, uh, they lock in here and they got themselves a community.
RUFFIN: Sure. And, you know, was it 89 percent of the people that live believe in God. There are a lot of lonely people that take that paranoid and twist it into God rather than conspiracy theories. And they don't have anymore evidence that God exists than TWA flight 800...
BUCHANAN: All right. But don't you have an economic interest in keeping these conspiracy theories going?
RUFFIN: Uh, we have an economic interest in trying to do the best work that we can to serve our readers and to serve ourselves. If we just wanted to bring more people to the site, we'd publish pictures of naked women, which is by far the most popular thing on the Internet, not conspiracy theories.
PRESS: Jonathan Vankin, ..
VANKIN: Yes.
PRESS: ... what about the role of the Internet here. I mean, Dr. Post says it's more and more popular now to believe these conspiracies. Isn't the Internet really like the fertile breeding ground for these things, allowing people and them to fly wildly and much faster?
VANKIN: The Internet -- the Internet is the most efficient form of communication ever devised, the most efficient method of spreading information. I mean, it's getting a lot of bad press lately, and I'm trying to figure out why.
You know, I followed, just to use an example, the TWA thing from day one when it happened. I followed it on the Internet. You know, it's really a mischaracterization to say that somehow, you know, this crazy conspiracy theory got out there on the Internet and just multiplied, you know, bred like a rabbit.
For every person who posted a conspiracy message in the use net, or posted a conspiracy theory web site, there was someone who posted a message to refute their claims, or to debate them. What you actually had going on in the Internet was a debate on a topic that was not being debated in the mainstream media. I think that's healthy. I don't think that's destructive at all.
PRESS: How 'bout people...
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me...
PRESS: How 'bout people that (just quick) -- how about people who post things like this -- I mean, we've got -- Natalie pulled a lot of stuff off the Internet for us today...
VANKIN: Yes.
PRESS: ... And here's one about the spam conspiracy.
And I'm reading this thinking it's serious about allied forces, when they freed Germany, they found -- I mean, came in and ended the Nazis, they found this uber meat -- that then they came into this country and they forced this awful product on the American people.
And then I realized this is just a big spoof. How much of this is on the Internet?
VANKIN: Yeah. There's a lot of big spoofs. There's a lot of big spoofs out there. I mean, our site -- I have a Web site as well. And, uh, a lot of it is -- Some of it's serious and some of it's tongue in cheek.
PRESS: It's funny!
BUCHANAN: All right. Let me -- let me talk to Dr. Post some.
That gentleman, Mr. Vankin, makes a very good point: On the Internet, because of the speed of communication, if you put something nutty up there, and you got it immediately contradicted by someone.
But it's out there, but it's immediately contradicted, and it's challenged. And what you've got is basically a sort of national argument, with millions of people involved. I mean, what would you do?
POST: But there's no real way of distinguishing between that which has evidence behind it and something which comes, comes from, uh, uh, been concocted.
VANKIN: What about your own -- what about your own intellect and your own power of independent thinking? That's -- when I read the New York Times and the Boston Globe, I mean, that's what I use to distinguish whether what I'm reading there is true or not.
I just don't buy this argument that somehow the Internet is full of these terrible things, and there's no way that we can tell what's true and what's false. I mean...
POST: Oh, I don't -- I don't quarrel with that at all. However, the -- there is a readiness in some population to believe the paranoid. And...
BUCHANAN: Which populations?
VANKIN: Well, sure. Sure there is. But there's also a readiness to contradict that.
BUCHANAN: Which populations?
VANKIN: Well, I'm thinking -- I'm thinking particularly of people who are feeling powerless, who are feeling insignificant. And there's a real satisfaction in knowing there's enemies out there, and that's the reason I'm not succeeding -- because of those bad guys.
PRESS: Ruffin Prevost. Ruffin Prevost. Last question to you. We're very short on time. But let me ask you:
The same story appears in "The New York Times" and the Internet. Totally different directions. Which one do we believe?
RUFFIN: Believe the one that makes the most sense to you. Use your own powers of, uh, intellect, intuition, and, uhm, deductive reasoning.
PRESS: On that -- with that challenge, I accept that challenge, using my own powers of reasoning.
And Ruffin Prevost in Los Angeles, thanks very much for a fascinating discussion, ...
RUFFIN: My pleasure. PRESS: ... as well as Jonathan Vankin up there in Boston with us. thanks for joining us.
BUCHANAN: Thank you, gentlemen.
PRESS: And Dr. Post, thank you for being here in the studio with us.
POST: My pleasure.
PRESS: And when we come back: Pat Buchanan and I, neither of whom believe in conspiracies -- we'll tell you about the last time we saw Elvis.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PRESS: Here are a couple of important weekend programming notes for CNN: Congressman Dan Burton, Chairman of the Government Oversight Committee, will be the guest on Evans & Novak at 5:30 P.M. Eastern on Saturday.
And, for more on the TW -- TWA investigation watch LATE EDITION with Frank Sesno, with FBI Assistant Director James Kallstrom -- and Senator Pete Domenici and Budget Director Franklin Raines talking about the budget.
That's Sunday at noon Eastern on CNN. Pat.
BUCHANAN: Lots of us, Bill, in journalism, as well as the Internet, have a vested interest in keeping these conspiracy theories going. But some of them are true. This is the (OFF-MIKE) of March...
PRESS: (LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: -- are coming up again. If Julius Caesar had listened to the misuses about the conspiracy down there with Buddas and Cassius, things might have been different.
PRESS: Pat, I told you: you are paranoid.
BUCHANAN: (LAUGHTER)
PRESS: I tell you. But, you know, for me -- I'm a non-believer.
BUCHANAN: Right.
PRESS: I don't believe in any of this stuff. But it used to be simpler. I mean, I remember the days when all we had to believe about were UFOs. And now you've got all this other stuff going around.
Frankly, I prefer to get my paranoia out of just a good mystery novel or a good spy novel. Forget the Internet.
BUCHANAN: Well, but I do think this, uh -- you know, I think that there -- there is something going on in society when so many of these -- there's -- beliefs are so deep and so broad about so many different conspiracies. Something's going on.
PRESS: But remember, Pat, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you, right?
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: That's right.
PRESS: From the Left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE. And have a great weekend.
BUCHANAN: Even paranoids have real enemies.
From the Right, I'm Pat Buchanan. Join us Monday night for another edition of CROSSFIRE. And be sure to watch Sunday CROSSFIRE with Bob Beckel (ph) and Lynn Cheney, 7:30 P.M. Eastern on CNN.