Even more interesting, this transcript is not quite complete. In a conversation about the 60 GCAT chapter, "Those Christ Kids," with host "The Digital Diva,: the following exchange ensued:
Diva: Is there really any evidence that Jesus was not crucified?
For some reason, that part didn't make it into the transcript.
Finally, note that because this is an old interview, most of the links won't work, so don't waste a click.
Welcome to WEB WHIRL with the Digital Diva
Your host: Michelle Slatalla
Brought to you by Discovery Channel OnlineSparky: Good Afternoon, and welcome to Web Whirl with the Digital Diva! Web Whirl is designed as a guided tour: Our Fearless Leader, the Digital Diva, and me, her faithful sidekick, Sparky, prowl the Web, and sniff out interesting sites for your entertainment and edification.
We'll check out about a dozen sites in the next hour, and keep Diva's flying saucer moving at warp speed. Our guest today is Jon Vankin, co-author of the book The 50 Greatest Conspiracy Theories of All Time.
If some of these sites interest you, bookmark 'em and go back to them after the Whirl is over. That way, you won't miss any scintillating repartee from our Diva, you won't miss any new sites we push your way, and (MOST importantly) we won't melt anybody's server.
Now, without further ado... LET THE WEB WHIRL BEGIN!
Diva: Thanks, Sparky, if that is you. How do I know it's you? Password?
Sparky: You don't have a need to know.
Today's Guest: Jon Vankin
http://www.cybercom.net/~jv/pix.htmlDiva: Let's take a minute to welcome our guest, Jon Vankin, who will be guiding us through this thicket of conspiracy sites. Jon, you've written two books on conspiracies and cover-ups. How did you get interested in the topic?
Jon Vankin: Basically, I was never the victim of a conspiracy. At least not that I know of. It was just a topic that I got interested in, mainly from reading a book called Apocalypse Culture, which had an entire section about this stuff. I thought, hey, that's pretty cool. Why don't I do a book on that.
Diva: Jon, your current book, 50 Greatest Conspiracies of All Time, has its own web site, and that's where we'll start the tour. Jesus escaped the crucifixion, JFK is alive, Waco was a cover-up, Sparky is a cover-up, it's all a cover-up, where'd you get all this stuff?
50 Greatest Conspiracy Theories of All Time: The Web Site
http://www.webcom.com/~conspire/buttons.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Jon Vankin: Well, we don't have any JFK is alive stuff in there. But we do try to see the amusing side of this material. So what the heck, if you know something that we don't...
Diva: Let's take a look at the greatest conspiracy of all time, the JFK assassination. What is it about the JFK assassination that so captivates conspiracy theorists 32 years later?
50 GCAT's JFK Assassination Gala
http://www.webcom.com/~conspire/jfkfront.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Jon Vankin: Simply the fact that it's still a mystery. And it affected a lot of people's lives. So I think people will keep on digging forever. Because I doubt there ever will be any answers at this point. It sure gets a lot of attention on the Net, though.
Diva: What's the strongest evidence, in your mind, that it was a conspiracy?
Jon Vankin: Hmmm, that's a tough one to answer. Probably the improbability of the "single bullet theory".
Diva: Audience, what do you think? Was it a conspiracy?
Fair Play Magazine
http://rmii.com/~jkelin/fp.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: While the multitudes are mulling that question, let's look at another JFK site. Sparky, you said this is your favorite one, right? Why?
Sparky: I enjoyed the way it broke the arguments down in a logical(?!) fashion, and there's some really fun stuff here as well--like the mystery of "The Babushka Lady."
Discovery: A question from the audience: Will we ever know the truth?
Diva: About the Babushka lady? Or the cover-up in general?
Jon Vankin: I doubt it.
Diva: Why not? I know the answer.
Jon Vankin: Well, it's just gone on too long and too many people have died one way or another.
Diva: I think the answer lies in the mystery of the Babushka Lady.
The Babushka Lady
http://rmii.com/~jkelin/beverly.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: Here we have a page that tells the story of a lady named Beverly, who claims to be the mysterious figure never identified in the Zapruder film--a bystander who may have been filming the motorcade. It takes awhile for this page to load but if you come back later to this site, you'll be able to read the whole story about how Beverly came forward years after the assassination and claimed to have the film. Sparky, you look cute in a babushka.
Sparky: Yes, it's that masculine stance of mine that gave it away, huh? And the fact I didn't shave my legs that morning.
Diva: I wish, that after all these years, we could lay the questions about JFK to rest. I wish we could put it before a jury to decide.
Mock JFK Trial
http://www.fail.com/proj_high_jfk/
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: Sparky, what's cool about this page?
Sparky: The page lets you download a video clip that shows forensic evidence. They rendered the bullet trajectories, and even the proposed view from Oswald's gun sights to the presidential limousine.
Jon Vankin: It seems pointless to me to do these types of computerized re-creations. They've been done before and they don't prove or disprove anything.
Sparky: But with all the data that they do have, doesn't it at least show it in a way that was unavailable at the time of the Warren Commission?
Jon Vankin: Not really. If anything, I think that they're less valuable than the Zapruder film, for example. Computer programs are only as good as the people running them, and those people have assumptions that are reflected in the outcome.
Diva: Well, if the films are so valuable, what about Beverly the Babushka Lady's film. It's never been shown. Shouldn't we be trying to track that down?
Jon Vankin: I'm sure somebody is.
Diva: I think I see Zapruder in the audience. Trust no one.
Sparky: Never did. Least of all you Diva.
Discovery: A question from the audience: What do you think about the validity of Stone's movie on JFK?
Jon Vankin: I liked the movie a lot. I think that there are a lot of things in there that are more accurate than the media gave Stone credit for. But even Stone said that his purpose was not to provide "truth," but to propose counter possibilities. Some of the material in the movie was self-contradictory.
Coup detat In The USA
http://www.webcom.com/~conspire/jfkcc.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Discovery: A question from the audience: What about the hobos led away from Dealey Plaza? Howard Hunt?
Jon Vankin: There is a recent book about that called The Fourth Tramp, which claims that the "Three Tramps" were a red herring, but that Oswald talked about the assassination to a cell-mate who was also arrested in the assassination but released. You can see that on a site called "The Truth is Redacted."
Diva: The fourth tramp was the cell-mate?
Jon Vankin: As I understand it, he wasn't literally a "tramp," but he was arrested in connection with the assassination.
Diva: But back to space aliens.
Alien Autopsy
http://www.webcom.com/~conspire/curren16.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: This page purports to show film footage of an autopsy on a space alien who looks suspiciously like Sparky. It's pretty realistic. Of course, it's been debunked.
Sparky: Was this guy assassinated?
Diva: Jon, what can you tell us about the origins of this conspiracy theory?
Jon Vankin: The film itself seems to have originated with a British "journalist." No one's really sure where the film came from, except him. But it's pretty certain that it's not a real alien--in my opinion anyway.
It Came From Hollywood
http://www.webcom.com/~conspire/curren19.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: In fact, your page talks about how the film could have been faked. The "alien's" skin doesn't sag on the table, and the camera happens to look away from the scene just as crucial gory inside parts of the alien would be revealed. Audience members, how many of you believe in space aliens? Clap if you do.
Sparky: CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP
Jon Vankin: Showtime did a fictional movie about Roswell. The autopsy depicted in that movie was more realistic than the supposedly "real" one.
Diva: Where's Roswell?
Jon Vankin: It's a town in New Mexico where a UFO supposedly crashed. Something really did crash there. The Air Force says it was a then-secret weather balloon. I saw a page once from a guy who thinks that UFOs come from inside the Earth and fly out through a hole in the South Pole. The page was advertising a cruise to Antarctica to see the hole--for just $9,999.
Sparky: Hey--I signed up for that!
Diva: We should go there on location for the next show!
Jon Vankin: Can I come?
Diva: One web site contains formerly top secret government plans that show the design of a spaceship that allegedly crashed in the desert years ago. Sparky talked to a man who actually worked for the government, trying to retrofit alien spaceships. Right, Sparky?
Jarod's Simulator: Spacecraft Designs
http://www.infi.net/~psyspy/area51/desert_rat/rat_27.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Sparky: (There's no proof that conversation ever took place!) Anyway, they refused to be on the program! They figured too many people would be listening.
Diva: Hmmm...that sounds plausible. Right. Sparky--if you are Sparky--why are you wearing blue contact lenses? Sparky has BROWN EYES! I need to take a break to think about this.
We'll Be Right Back With More from The Digital Diva
http://www.discovery.com/DCO/doc/1012/world/whirl/back.html
Sparky: Once again, Good Afternoon--and welcome to Web Whirl with the Digital Diva! Our guest today is Jon Vankin, co-author of the book The 50 Greatest Conspiracy Theories of All Time.
Feel free to bookmark the sites as we go along, and be sure to pass on any questions you might have to our online moderator, "AskMe." We'll pass 'em along to the Diva just a quick as we can.
Welcome To Web Whirl With The Digital Diva
http://www.discovery.com/DCO/doc/1012/world/whirl/opener.html
Sparky: We'll post a transcript of the show on the Discovery Channel Online site the day after the show. That way, you won't miss a thing. And now, back to our show!
50 Greatest Conspiracy Theories of All Time
http://www.webcom.com/~conspire/
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: Jon, why did you put up a companion web site to go with your book, 50 Greatest Conspiracies of All Time?
Jon Vankin: It started as a promotional thing and it worked really well, we think. But we also saw it as part of a multimedia project. There will still be a "Conspiracies" CD-ROM, and a TV show (hopefully). This was just the first part of that. So we tried to give the site an identity of its own, beyond just a big plug for the book.
Diva: What is it about being online, in particular, that attracts conspiracy theorists? Why do they gather on the Net?
Jon Vankin: I think because it's such a great medium for exchanging "secret" information without going through "the usual channels." It's also a big topic on late night radio and short wave radio.
Diva: What happened to Sparky? He was here a minute ago. Sparky? Where are you?
Sparky: I'm back.
Diva: WAIT. NOW YOUR EYES ARE GREEN?!
Sparky: Jon, do you believe the Web also plays to being a " democratic" medium, in which everyone's opinion's count the same?
Jon Vankin: It's definitely the closest thing we have to that ideal right now. The Net sure makes it easier.
Diva: Where else but the Net could we learn the truth, the uncensored truth, about secret government military bases?
Area 51 / Groom Lake
http://www.cris.com/~psyspy/area51/index.shtml
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: Groom Lake. This military base doesn't even exist on a map, I understand the government doesn't even officially acknowledge that it's there, and that situation has given rise to a lot of questions about whether... ALIENS HAVE BEEN AUTOPSIED THERE! There's a whole subculture that's grown up around the mystery. There's even a publication dedicated to the myths and questions surrounding Groom Lake.
Groom Lake Desert Rat
http://www.cris.com/~Psyspy/area51/desert_rat/
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Sparky: It's a monthly e-zine that describes the goings on of the "subculture" that flocks to Groom Lake. It seems they often get into contests of who saw the weirdest craft flying over the test ranges.
Jon Vankin: Apparently, the Queen of England's husband, Prince Philip, subscribes to "Flying Saucer Review."
Discovery: A question from the audience: Any stuff on the Loch Ness Monster?
Sparky: Not on our site, but there's something out there. Isn't there always?
Diva: Actually, I was reading a lot on the monster, myself. I just did a search on Alta Vista and a bunch of sites came up. Try that after the show. Groom Lake is the least of it, when we're talking government cover-ups...
The Oklahoma City Bombing
http://www.primenet.com/~asomers/OKBOMB/okbomb.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: A lot of people out there seem to think that the Oklahoma bombing is a cover-up itself, that the bombing was a way for the government to destroy evidence about the Waco cover-up. You all still following? Jon, is there any real evidence that the Oklahoma bombing was a conspiracy by the government?
Jon Vankin: On the site, there's a transcript of a short wave radio show about the "confession" of a couple of FBI agents who say that a "Committee of 10" planned the bombing. But is there "real" evidence of a government conspiracy? Depends on who you ask.
Discovery: A question from the audience: What about the new bill censoring the Internet--sounds like a government conspiracy to me.
Diva: Interesting premise, but in this case, you've got a Congress so befuddled by its own inability to actually configure a modem and get online to see what it is that needs to be censored, that I doubt any members could carry off a cover-up.
Jon Vankin: I don't think it's a "conspiracy" because there's nothing secret about it. It's just a case of the public rolling over while an important freedom is stripped away.
Diva: Back to Oklahoma, Jon's site, "50 Greatest Conspiracies..." has a page that links the bombing to Jack Ruby's mail.
Jon Vankin: Uh, not exactly....
Diva: You're denying it?
Conspiracy Theories Behind The Bombing
http://www.webcom.com/~conspire/current7.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Jon Vankin: That would be like if the New York Times. runs stories about Magic Johnson and JFK on its front page linking Magic to JFK... The Magic Bullet!
Sparky: Somewhere I'm sure there are folks who believe that important evidence was in the Federal Building.
Diva: The thing that's interesting about this sub-page on your site, Jon is the idea that some people think there are secret concentration camps in the U.S. Where are these camps and who's in them?
Jon Vankin: The inspiration for that is the Oliver North plan called Rex 84, which proposed putting illegal aliens in concentration camps.
Diva: Would Oliver be the headmaster?
Jon Vankin: Of course, a lot are already in detention camps, which is pretty bad. But they're not quite "concentration camps."
Diva: Enough with the government conspiracies...it gets me a little depressed to think about how I'm being WATCHED all the time. A more amusing conspiracy is one that Jon dug up, unearthing evidence that the Crucifixion might not have occurred...and that, in fact, Jesus was a Frenchman.
Those Christ Kids
http://www.webcom.com/~conspire/priory.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Jon Vankin: We get more e-mail about this page than almost any other on the site--except the alien autopsy stuff. My co-author, John Whalen, has actually been to Rennes-le-Chateau in France. That's where he got the pictures.
Diva: Before we close the show, I want to take a minute to visit a conspiracy that consumed me during my teenage years--a cover-up of gigantic proportions that has never been fully explained. Paul is dead!... Or is he?
Sparky: (She's showing her age.)
Paul Is Dead
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Obituary/paul.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: This page is great. It contains an exhaustive list of lyrics from Beatles' albums, in which the Fab Four were hinting that in fact Paul was dead--or else that he wasn't.
Sparky: If you load this page backwards, it reveals EVERYTHING!
Diva: Sparky, were you ever able to get your record player to play backwards?
Sparky: I had an 8-track, and no matter how many times I shoved 'em in upside down, they never worked.
Jon Vankin: I like the "Lisa Marie Presley is an Impostor" page. It's a "Paul is Dead" for the '90s!
Diva: There are tons more conspiracy sites on the web that you Whirlers can look at after the show. One of our parting gifts to the audience today is an index of Gonzo Links to Conspiracy sites.
Gonzo Links
http://www.capcon.net/users/lbenedet/gonzo.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Diva: I thought that last error in the Warren commission report was a typo.
And our final gift today something to mull over is a site where you can create your own conspiracy theory about virtually anything. You plug in the parameters and create a theory of your own. For instance: "Sparky" is a "Frenchman" controlled by "aluminum foil" electrodes in his "brain."
Create Your Own Conspiracy
http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html
[NOTE: The views expressed on this site are not those of Discovery Communications, Inc.]Jon Vankin: It's "Mad Libs" for the paranoid '90s!
Diva: I want to thank Jon Vankin, author of 50 Greatest Conspiracies of All Time, for joining us today to help us navigate through the wealth of conspiracy sites online. Jon, do you have any parting words for us?
Jon Vankin: Thanks. I've enjoyed it. I just hope people can take this stuff with right size grain of salt. Big, but not too big.
Sparky: Well, that wraps up another exciting Whirl for this week, kiddies. Be sure to throw on your tied-dyes and join us for our next Web Whirl on February 17th, when we'll seek out "The Last Hippies", with special guest Howard Rheingold! On behalf of the Diva, this is Sparky saying "so long," and remember: friends don't let friends surf drunk!
(APPLAUSE) (Cue Music) (Roll Credits) (Fade to Black...)
Diva: Trust me, Sparky.
Sparky: TRUST NO ONE!